Simone Cicero:
Welcome, everybody. We’re back at the Boundaryless Conversations Podcast. Together with me today there is my usual co-host, Stina Heikkila.

Stina Heikkila:
Hello, everyone.

Simone Cicero:
And we also have another team mate today for a little special episode. With us we have today Lucía Hernández.

Lucía Hernández:
Hi, Simone. Hi, Stina.

Simone Cicero:
Ciao Lucía. And Lucía is with us today to discuss a very important topic, I would say central to today’s conversations that we are having on many fronts; the topic of regenerative platforms. Lucía is one of our team mates. She has this passion and interest to discover and uncover how the principles of regenerative thinking could be applied to our bread and butter platform and ecosystems thinking. And so she embarked in this research. And Lucía, I’m really much excited today to expose our listeners to your work. So, maybe as a starting point, I would like to ask you to just frame a bit where this idea of regenerative thinking comes from. Sometimes you told me it’s a movement. So, I would really be interested to understand a bit more of the roots of this movement, and maybe some of the most important thinkers behind it. Just give us a little bit of a frame of where this is coming from.

Lucía Hernández:
Okay. So, the first place where the term was used was in a book from Buckminster Fuller, talking about how regenerative, well, is related to life. In 1980, the term was coined to define regenerative agriculture, that is called permaculture. And then from that moment, it was applied, or it has been applied to other fields like urbanism, architecture, finance, production, value chains, or how to look at the value chains. And they don’t call them value chains, because they feel that this is very linear. And they talk about value networks, for example, and also in leadership and organizations, so how you organize internally, in order to create really regenerative products and services.

Simone Cicero:
Thank you so much. And I know that you have put together a set of principles, right, where trying to mix together essentially platform thinking and regenerative thinking, maybe we can go quickly through those principles to help frame a bit the conversation for our listeners, right, six principles, so it’s not too many. And for our listeners, we’re also going to link to Lucía’s blog post where she goes through them. But maybe it’s a good idea to quickly touch upon the six principles to use them as our conversation starters.

Lucía Hernández:
Okay. Yes. The idea was in these last two years I was studying or researching about how regenerative design and platform design could interact or where are the confluences between the two. As you know, platform design is a mindset and regenerative design is also a mindset. There are a lot of authors that are talking about regeneration or regenerative design principles in order to design from them to create that in organizations of product or service that are regenerative in their contexts. Among them, there are the ones from John Fullerton, from the founder of Capital Institute, Bill Reed from Regenesis group, or you can also be inspired by Janine Benyus, with the Biomimicry Institute. There are others. There are also one company that is called nRhythm that is creating this regenerative framework in order to create or design organizations to be regenerative from inside to the outside. This is a process that normally begins internally in order to expand externally. Then I was trying to do that, to mix the principles from platform design to mix with the principles of regenerative design. And it came up, these six principles, that all of them are interconnected. Well, you can use one of them, holism, that is the most general one. But the idea is really to use them as interconnected principles.

So, the first principle is about holism, that is to look at the system as one system by itself, unique. Yeah, and interconnected, right? So, if you are able to see the system as this interconnected network, that everything that happens in one point of the system is impacting in other parts of the system, you are more able to design, to generate a positive impact in each part of the system. And this is one of them, the most important ones. The other is about potential because at the end, potential is something that is inherent to the quality or character of an entity. And I think that this fits very well with platform design since at the end in platform design, you leverage on the potential or the uniqueness of each of the entities inside the platform. So, if you can design intentionally for the people to express their potential, you really can create a space where they can evolve and they can develop.

The other one is development. That is super interesting, because at the end, you can’t have development if you don’t intentionally design for that. So, you can create the space for the entity inside the ecosystem in order to have this development that they need or to create better opportunities for them to develop or to do a better performance. The fourth one is interconnectedness because we are interconnected in the system. So, if we can see this idea of that we are relational social beings interacting all the time with each other, and with our environment, you can really think about how to empower these interactions or relationships between or in the system.

The other is about emergence, this is a term that is used in service design and refers to the properties or behaviors which emerge only when the entities are interacting in — and I think that this is one of the most interesting principles, because at the end, in a group of people in co-creation, it can emerge something that is bigger than the ones or the theme that can emerge just from the isolated individuals in the system. So, if you allow this emergence, you are also fighting with control. And then you can let the system really or the entities in the system emerge and use their uniqueness and their interconnectedness and using the platform or the spaces that has been created in order to create new things, to produce new ideas, new services, whatever they need in order to really to do the job or the activity.

And the last one is about evolutionary. I think that this is something that we also come across on platforms, that platforms are these future sensing engines. And then if you can really, yeah, take into account or listening to the ecosystem all the time in order to — to the ecosystem and also to the context where you are applying your strategy, you can really create a space for evolution. And for being relevant in the market and for sure to give all the time, or to respond all the time to the needs of the users of this system. I think that this system, this is a framework at the end. You can use it in order to design from them to regenerate damaged ecosystems or as a principle of design. And yeah, more or less is about that.

Simone Cicero:
So, let me just highlight some points for your for our listeners, and then I will hand it over to Stina that I know has a question. So, very interesting. Just as a recap, you offer holism as a founding principle, let’s say. And on top of that you have these five pillars, right, potential, development, interconnectedness, emergence, and evolutionary. So, these are these five key words, let’s say that you use. From listening to you, I see essentially a couple of clusters, let’s say of ideas. One is the idea of essentially creating a space that can produce something different from what is in the vision of the designer, let’s say when you say for example, emergence, and development. So, I think this is a very key point for our platform designers to keep in mind.

So, if you design a platform, and you want to make it regenerative, maybe you have to create this to be open to the space evolving in new directions. And I see that emerging from the space, especially, for example, let me make an example on a platform that we just covered recently called Brain Trust, where they are using tokens to give participants in the ecosystem the potential basically to participate in the strategy and to design new directions where the platform can go. And this is a fairly big opening from the perspective of the designers and the owners of the platform, the original owners, I would say, because in this, in this case, we are talking about distributed ownership platform. But let’s say the original designers are making it possible for developers to evolve the new directions, which are not in their control. And I think this connects very well with this idea of emergence and development.

Then on the other side, another cluster that I see is a cluster that essentially resonates with this idea that you have to listen to the ecosystem. That is a big principle of our platform design approach. When you say for example, potential, the idea to look into the characters of the entities in the ecosystem and essentially designed for them instead of imposing on them a certain idea that you have. I think this is essentially, it’s a big friction that we see in, I would say, in a traditional industrial approach to building a business, when you have, I would say a company or desire, having a certain idea and imposing that through leverage, through technology, for example, of money just to the ecosystem. And so I think these are worth underlining for our listeners to start identify some key thinking points moving forward. Stina.

Stina Heikkila:
Thank you so much. My question is, maybe if we can just step back a little bit, and really to think about the intent and the intention and the mindset that you were mentioning, Lucía, in the beginning when you started to talk about regeneration as a kind of movement. Because I think something that maybe we can clarify a bit is: so what is it that unites the regenerative movement? What is it that let’s say, this movement is trying to achieve? And maybe we can be more explicit, because we said, okay, holism as a founding principle, and how is the balance there? I guess what I’m trying to get to is sort of balance between nature, conditions for life and humanity in a way. And I’m sure that you have a lot of thoughts around that, like what is it really that makes this moment stand out, and what are they trying to sort of achieve in the bigger system?

Lucía Hernández:
I think that this is a quote from Gregory Bateson that the difference is between how we see the world and how the world is operating, really operating. Right? And it’s also the words from Fritjof Capra, talking about climate change, immigration, water crisis, instability, loss of biodiversity, whatever, all of them are really systemic problems, because we see the separation about we and nature. We need to really get the point of looking at everything as this unique system, interconnected. And then we are going to understand better how all is impacting in each part of the system and how we can, if we are able to do it, how we can really create actions in some parts of the system in order to create more positive feedback on the other parts of the system. So, the idea is that we have serious problems with Mother Earth and with our environment, and we need to really change our mind in how we address these kind of problems, right?

So, we really need to look at the system as this unique system alive and just trying to understand how we can deal with this complexity; looking or being inspired by how nature works. So, I think that the movement of regeneration is basically what they want to bring is that idea of we need to really start thinking about this unique system, not to think about or not to feel this as separation, this idea of we are separate from this source at the end. Because if you think about fashion, for example, I don’t know how many people ask themselves, where or how the clothes is made. And then there are a lot of fashion companies that are trying to really go to the base or to the source of their raw materials and trying to understand how they can really, or how the providers can really become regenerative in order to move on in their value chains or network in order to really create something that is more regenerative for everybody.

And the other thing that I think that is also interesting is Simone talk about is this idea of these new organizations that are emerging as distributed governance – distributed autonomous organizations, right, or tokens, and all that. And I think that is also a very interesting trend that is happening in the platform economy. It’s about the individual for sure, because it’s about the uniqueness of the individual in the system. But I think that we are, as the beginning of the collaborative economy or the sharing economy, that we have started to think about how the peers could produce value in the system, and this is something that platforms did really well; introduce or integrate the individual, the people in the production of value. And I think that we are following this kind of mindset of how we can be more independent in the way that we run our lives, our businesses, our whatever. So, I would say that we are waking up and trying to understand better how we are in this system, what is our role in the system and how we can contribute to a better future for everyone.

Stina Heikkila:
Yeah, thank you. I think this is what I needed personally as a kind of addition, because when you see those clusters that also Simone was talking about, let participants develop, let things emerge, listen to the ecosystem, and so on. But then, at the same time, what is it then that we are trying to design. And I think you brought up there’s a little bit like mimicking nature, and letting this holism and the non-separation between nature and society? Let that be the conditions that we are working within somehow, let’s say. So, I think that really helped me to get a clearer view on actually what we are talking about in terms of regeneration.

Simone Cicero:
I think that’s an interesting passage, right, because as Lucía said, when these collaborative economy started and platform economy started, it was a decisive shift towards empowering producers, right? So it’s, to some extent, embodying part of the idea of regenerative economies, right, empowering, enabling, and so on. And now we are seeing also, with the example I made with Brain Trust, and the reference to DAOs and so on, we are seeing ecosystem taking more responsibility, and a broader role in shaping the interaction.

So, to some extent, is an expression of holism because the whole takes the lead, let’s say. But I’m wondering if, and this is more like an open reflection that I pass back to you, Lucía, and then to Stina if you want to add some. I’m wondering if — Shouldn’t we look into more of a paradigm shift? So, more than these progressive steps towards an idea of regenerative business, that maybe it’s good to suit our, let’s say, anxiety for the world. But it’s more like just a progressive, step by step, not enough, let’s say to really change the direction, shouldn’t we look into more of a paradigm shift? And what do I mean with that? I mean, paradigm shift to that maybe? I don’t know, maybe it’s more ambitious in terms of making this continuity between the business as we know it today and as it should be.

On the other hand, I must say, I’m wondering, am I being naive in thinking that a paradigm shift will come and save us, let’s say, right? So, it could be also seen as a naive way of thinking. So, maybe the evolution is everything we have, as a human society and we don’t need to look necessarily into something that is a big paradigm shift. But it appears that the world is on the brink of major shifts, right, if you think about how the ecological situation is dire, our social systems are, I don’t want to say on the brink of collapsing, but some of them have already collapsed, like the energy system or supply chains, these very days.

So, the question, the final reflection that I pass to you is, is this way of thinking about the regenerative business, regenerative platform really enough, or shouldn’t we think of something more ambitious? And how could this ambition be represented or express itself into the world of how we organize?

Lucía Hernández:
Yeah, I think that, in general, we are more mature as a society, right, and organizations need to really think about how they — what is their role in society, but also how they can take responsibility about what they do. I think that this is something that is really needed. But it’s not only organization’s because I don’t see or I don’t think that our organizations that are going to save me or save us. I would say that we as individuals, we have also to think or to really look inside and think how we can really connect with our desires of doing good or taking care of what is important for us, the environment and so on. And this is, I think, something that in general, but generally in all organizations, but also for showing platforms that they are not really good at looking at the context that they are operating, right.

So, this is I think one of the challenges of most of the platforms, in general, most of the organizations and how they are impacting with their business in the context where they are operating. And this is something that is going to change everything. I remember listening to a podcast from the director of sustainability from General Mills, and she was talking about how just thinking about context, some of the principles of regeneration, context about development, about holism or about how we are interconnected or how everything is interconnected, change everything in their business, in the decisions that they took, or that they are taking in their business basically.

Because never before was so easy for the people working on the company, on really integrating the values of sustainability because you know that you can’t be sustainable if you are not regenerative. So, if you want to be sustainable, really you need to think about being regenerative. So, I think that this is the thing that is super interesting for me because at the end, it’s about words, maybe it’s about a framework, for sure, it’s a mindset, but the same as in platform design, when you are integrated platform mindset you are capable of looking or seeing platforms all around. And the same is with regeneration. Once you have integrated regenerative mindset, you can see regeneration in everything you do, or in everything that you can do. And I think that this is really the shift, really the change where it needs to come from. And this is something that I think that is complementary to platform design, because platform design, as I see is more about looking at the ecosystem and designing for them and this is super relevant.

But I think that we also need to look inside us, inside our organizations, how we are creating the spaces for development for showing, really the uniqueness of the people that are working to create a space or safest spaces in order to let the emergence to be or to emerge. And how we can, from this loop or positive loop; completely circular how we can start with this looking? Is this this weird quasi circle about inner outer right? It’s like completely in movement. And so I think that this is one of the most interesting things, how we look at ourselves and we can create, also the boundaries and the space for development and from that perspective or that lens, how we can create better spaces for the ecosystem.

Simone Cicero:
I mean, this sounds like a candidate for this paradigm shift because if you talk about, you know what I get from you in these passages, something like context, right? Context is very important. And emotions are very important and relationships are very important and place is very important. And so I’m thinking of that maybe we have been thinking about decentralization too much, and what we should have been thinking a bit more, maybe it’s embodiment, right. So, more than just decentralizing for the sake of having different shape of the network, we have to consider that these networks need to be entangled with the landscape, entangled with relationships, with people.

So, that sounds like a massive paradigm shift, right? Because nothing in the current model of the economy we have, it’s connected with our emotions, right? There is no role for feelings, emotions of people. Everything is developed on a productive, rational and acted dimension. So, I think this can be a good point to come back. Before leaving it to Stina, I would like to ask you maybe just a quick reflection on place, right? Because place seems to be a massive part of this entanglement and embodiment of the economy. I know that some of the people you have been researching with and about have been doing a lot of work on place-based economy. So, what is the role of place? What is the role of landscape, especially as we live in cities, most of us live in cities or in semi-rural places where landscape have disappeared from our perception. So, what is the role of a place-based economies and thinking into the regenerative thinking and regenerative platform discussion?

Lucía Hernández:
So, it’s key. Place is key in the development of products and services in the regenerative design movement. Maybe there are differences between, for example — In any case, because I was thinking about tourism, for example. In tourism it’s key to think about the place and this is something that I think that this is the most, or one of the most powerful traits of platform design. Because at the end, because you are a distributed network, you can really impact locally, right? So, you can have your narrative or your storytelling, your value proposition, whatever is connected or is being used as the glue of the network.

But in any case, the impact is local because of that you can’t replicate solutions in one place or in another because it’s completely linked to the place where the product, service or whatever is being developed. So, place is key in order to really understand the context where you are developing the solution. And is key also in understanding the cultural elements or the societal and how they work, how they behave, whatever. So, I think that this is something that makes it or link it to platform design could be very powerful, because platforms do that, right. So, they distribute the value creation among the system. And then you can really work with this idea of designing in the place where you are operating.

Stina Heikkila:
And I guess that this also means really something that we also touched upon, okay, decentralizing the impact, let’s say that you are saying. Unfortunately, we have also seen a lot of negative decentralized impact of the platform economy as some parts of it, let’s say, has evolved. I’m thinking of course about gig workers and various things like that. So, it’s really now coming to that paradigm shift that we were talking about, like if we can also decentralize the power and the agency of those who are part of the ecosystem; that’s where we can really start to entangle, embody, and sort of embed with the place I think. But actually, I also had another question for you in that context, because maybe, if I take a bit of a less optimistic view on that the players in our ecosystem really want to do something regenerative or you were talking about this inside-outside and the work that we have to do a bit with ourselves, this is key.

Because for now if we are following sort of that paradigm, which is more about efficiency, production, etc., it seems hard to reconcile that with the sort of regenerative framework in a way. And I think you have done, also some thinking in terms of the mindset of, maybe abundance versus scarcity. So, what does it mean, in the context that you’re describing, Lucía, to adopt a sort of abundance mindset? Or on the other hand, what would it look like if we go more for a scarcity mindset and really trying to think about limiting conditions, maybe, if we think that we need to adopt a kind of abundance mindset within this framework? Or if we think about, on the other hand, this kind of austerity, and something’s going to give in all of this. Because otherwise, we won’t manage to get there in a way. So, I don’t know if you want to share just a bit on how you are thinking about those questions within the work that you do on regeneration.

Lucía Hernández:
So, two things. One, is about the gig workers or gig economy. I think that the same that platform cooperativism, was born as an opposition of platforms, so capitalist, more capitalist platforms, the creator economy is being more or is emerging as an opposition also to the gig economy. So, what does it mean for me? At the end is what we are looking because we are more mature, and we have the elements, and we have the technology. And we have platforms in order to really to generate incomes, with our activity in this platform is emerging these big, big, big, big, I would say — I don’t want to say movement because maybe it’s like — or it’s a way of doing. But it’s based on the individual’s creating incredible themes being supported by all the apps and all the platforms that are around or that has been creating to support them. So, I think that this is very important because these are global trends. And we need to look at these global trends in order to understand how we are moving on, where are we going with this idea?

So, distributed, yes. Distributed in the way of the economy, no. But distributed in the way of the creator economy that is more about giving the individual the independence or the autonomy in order to create their own businesses, yes, and this is local, for sure. And then the other thing is that — second thing is that regeneration is a process. And this is something that, in my case, I feel like it keeps me calm, because at the end, it is not about that I need to — Regeneration is not a goal. Regeneration is a process that you start, as you start, for example, personal development that is not the goal that I want to be regenerative or I want to whatever, to now to start to feel a regeneration. No, no, it’s more about no is a process that you start and then I go step by step, feeling better in the process that I intentionally or intentionally started. So, this is something that I think that is also very important to say.

The other thing is about abundance. Nature is about abundance. Living systems is about abundance. If you look at a forest, it’s about abundance. So, this is my feeling. Of course, it’s not very formal, but I feel abundance when I am close to nature. So, I don’t know if you have ever gone looking for sparrows or mushrooms, but there is an abundance that is amazing. So, I normally don’t take more than I can take on my hand. Because if not, I can really start to sell them, because it’s so abundant that you can really start a business with that. So, I think that abundance is about a state of mind. And then you can feel it or not. But if you feel it, you really feel very well.

Simone Cicero:
Stina, I don’t know, maybe I want to offer for our listeners as well, the reflection on the point that Lucía made that we often been talking about this idea of scarcity and abundance and trying to push some realism in terms of trying to explain how new thesis of organizing at scale platforms, whatever, it needs to factor in some kind of sacrifice, let’s say, some kind of austerity as you said using the term coming from the idea of conviviality. But maybe in terms of, for example, reducing externalities. And for example, if you think about embedding an organization inside a landscape, for example, you have to think about that you can limit the use of resources, you should limit the use of resources that are outside of that landscape, right? And, of course, we have been also running a fantastic episode on progress with Jason. We spoke about this idea also of trying to be real, and not be naive in thinking that globalization is dumb. And we’re going to stop trading and whatever not because all these things have an impact in terms of externalities.

But the point, I think that is coming from this conversation which I believe it could be really, a basis for a new type of research, is that if you think about how also the concept of austerity is presented by Illich, as a positive term, and he in the preface, sorry, of tools for conviviality if I remember well, he reconnects with the text from Aquinas, where essentially, this idea of austerity is seen as a way to connect with others. So, it’s a way to find maybe a new type of — different type of abundance which is not about what we consume. But it’s an abundance in terms of, I don’t know how to say, the relational abundance, we can really have, if we imagine a new organizational model that is based on collaborating with each other in the plays, in the landscape, creating value for each other, and so on.

So, to some extent, I would say that maybe there are two facets in this transition, where you say something has to give. Yes, something has to give, but maybe on the other side, we can find something else, that is really what we, as humans crave for, which is relationships, which is emotions, which is how we relate to each other, and so on. Of course, I think we also have to consider that in thinking about regenerative economies, there is a need to really reconnect with the limits of the context. Because as for example, when we had Daniel Wahl on the podcast, he said, something very interesting that health is a property of a nested system.

So, I think this is maybe something we can reflect a little bit more about. So, how do we build platforms in a way that they are nested in our landscapes, in our families, in our communities, and so on? So, platform designers listening to this podcast, you have to think through this, you have to challenge your ideas of scalable models and so on. If they’re not connected with the context, these models cannot regenerate health. That’s something that you have to factor in. What do you think, Lucía?

Lucía Hernández:
Yeah, I totally agree. I think that this idea of austerity, if austerity is about really live and be happy with what you have, if austerity the for me has to do with taking those pearls that fits in your hand and being happy with it and without wanting to accumulate, I think that this is the way that I live abundance as well. It seems like two faces of the same coin. I agree also about relationships. There is this research that was looking at observing people during an amount — time of — I mean, I think 40 years or something like that, and those that were more happy were the ones that have better or more close relationships, right.

So, I think this is something that, yeah, we are social beings and we need people and we need being in community and because of that, the term “nested” is so important also, because at the end we are individual nested in a family, nested in a community or a neighborhood, nested in whatever, in a city and so on. So, this is something that also, yeah, for me it’s like being more comfortable with the idea that you are not alone. And that you can really be supported by your nested systems in order to be more happy. Because at the end, everyone wants one thing, to be happy and to stay well and so on.

Simone Cicero:
One thing that I was reflecting about, maybe as a closure before leaving it to you to give some pointers, I think we get somewhere in terms of recasting our — some idea of success in a broader context of health. And another thing that is on our radar since a while now is this idea of moving away from our perspective of trade, into a perspective of investing and creating wealth. And I think from what we have been exchanging today, this resonates a lot with some ideas of so-called community wealth. For example, I can point our listeners to the work of Marjorie Kelly on this topic, this idea of community wealth, so this idea that, yes, we can create wealth, we can invest our time, our energy, our money, whatever, beyond just looking into having economies of happiness, or economies of interactions or relationships. We can look into creating wealth and investing, but it needs to be wealth that is, in itself, it needs to be embedded in the context.

So, it cannot be just money because money, by definition, Nora will agree, Nora Bateson, that also was on our podcast a few months ago will agree once you transactionalize something, and money is the hell of transactionalization, you erase completely the context. So, again, investing, wealth creation can be part of our thesis of organizing, but it needs to be wealth that is embedded in the context; in the relationships in the landscape, and so on. So, community wealth probably is another area topic that we should be exploring in connection with this idea of creating regenerative platforms. Wow, that was a very deep conversation. Lucía, I don’t know if you will have some closing notes. And then maybe you can point the listeners to some of where they can read your work or connect with you.

Lucía Hernández:
Yeah, for sure. Just to finish and to talk about this thing about the wealth, I think that it’s super interesting, because the regenerative design frameworks that I studied in these two years, if you want to start, you need to do in one moment of the process an assessment of the health of the system. So, I think that, of course, to really generate this wealth, you need to do an assessment of how healthy is the system? I think that this is super interesting. It’s not very tangible, because it’s like how we can do that. But I think that there is no definition or a formal definition about what regeneration is. I think that thinking about this, know how we can create the right conditions for all life to thrive and to flourish, including for sure, everybody, I would say human and non-human stakeholders in the equation, I think that this is the base of everything. And using the principles just as an inspiration, in order to design.

If you want to read something about regeneration, I wrote two articles about regenerative platform business models. And the second one about the principles of regenerative platforms is something that I started to think about. And it’s just the beginning, because I am still learning. I’m happy to learn with others, of course, and to move on in this idea of how we can regenerate or how we can scale regeneration through platform models. So, thank you.

Stina Heikkila:
And thank you, Lucía. I think just the final comment on my end is that what started to be almost seemed like a contradiction, I think through this conversation, I mean, between scarcity and abundance, through this last part of the conversation, this really turns out to be, like you mentioned, the kind of two sides of the same coin. And it really depends on how we look at things and really how we embed it in the context that it’s actually not contradictory at all. So, thank you for the conversation.

Simone Cicero:
Thank you so much. Thank you, Lucía. Thank you, Stina. And to our listeners, catch up soon.