This episode is hosted by Boundaryless Conversation Podcast host Simone Cicero with co-host Stina Heikkila.

The following is a semi-automatically generated transcript that has not been thoroughly revised by the podcast host or by the guest. Please check with us before using any quotations from this transcript. Thank you.

Simone Cicero:
Hello, everyone. We are back with an episode of the Boundaryless Conversation Podcast. Tonight with me, I have my usual co-host, Stina Heikkila.

Stina Heikkila:
Hello, hello.

Simone Cicero:
And with us tonight we have Peter C. Evans. So, good evening, Peter. For you, it’s afternoon I think, something like that.

Peter C. Evans:
It is indeed. Hey, everybody.

Simone Cicero:
Peter, thanks very much for your time. And we look forward to discuss with you a very massively important topic as you know, the topic of generating, as you say, the next generation of leaders that can deal with this platform age. So, before jumping into these questions, with regards to Platform Talent, I would like to ask you a quick maybe reflection for our listeners, with regards to your recent July, if I’m not wrong, experience as co-chair of the MIT platform summit. So, maybe you can share with us your highlights before we start?

Peter C. Evans:
Sure. Well, I’ve been co-chairing the MIT platform strategy summit with Geoffrey Parker and Marshall Van Alstyne for the past four years. And of course, with Covid-19, we were — usually, we get together at the MIT Media Lab, which is an amazing space — and this year, because of Covid-19, we had to do it virtually. But that actually turned out to be quite a benefit in the sense that we were able to reach a much larger audience than we expected. Typically, the in-person event has grown to about 280–300 people. This year, when we went virtually, we were able to engage… over 900 people attended. So, that was a big bonus from going virtual.

Simone Cicero:
Right, I think this is a shared experience for many, I would say that we are discovering the usefulness of doing events online and letting more people to join and to participate.

Peter C. Evans:
Yeah. So, our thought on next year is that we should do a hybrid event. And so we will have hopefully an in-person component to the event. But then we’ll also have an online and virtual component, which allows us to reach both people in Europe, in Asia, in South America that normally wouldn’t be able to participate.

Simone Cicero:
So, people should really keep an eye on the date and be sure to join when it’s the time. So, at the event, Marshall, and Geoffrey and you presented, you gave a crazy, great keynote at the start that I really encourage everybody listening to this podcast to check out. And I will be sure to put it in the notes because by the way, it’s a private, I would say, playlist on YouTube. So, it’s hard to find, but you will find it in the notes. And in this opening kind of address, you presented to the, if I’m not wrong, your upcoming Platform Talent 2020 study. And really, I think this is going to be the main topic of the conversation that we’re going to have today that of talent leadership, how do you build this? How do you hire the right people for this age? So, first of all, I would like to ask you: what drove you to conduct with your associates this study on Platform Talent, Peter?

Peter C. Evans:
Sure. So, I’ve been looking at platforms for 10 years now. I got first interested in platforms while I was doing strategy at General Electric. And then I moved to the Center for Global Enterprise. And there, I undertook the first actually global survey of platforms. And I co-wrote a paper with Annabel Gower, who’s well known in the platform space. And we identified the top 100 platforms plus a lot of startups in the platform space. And so there’s actually now a number of people who track platforms and keep lists of the top platforms. So, that topic has been out there. And the other is, there’s a lot of work being done on platform business models. So, there’s really nothing new there. But what I think is — so I’m always looking for white spaces — and the Platform Talent space occurred to me because we’re kind of entering a new phase where a lot of the technology that is needed to build platforms is well known.

In fact, we’re seeing the rise of companies that just specialize in building platforms. So, platforms as a service are out there. So, the technology is understood, and the business model are increasingly well understood. But maybe the next phase is really populating the platforms, especially the incumbents that are adopting platform strategies with the talent they need to drive those initiatives. And when I looked around, there weren’t that many focusing on it. There’s a lot of focus on the gig economy and gig workers component, but the managerial class that is responsible for the elements of formulating, managing the platform strategy, there really isn’t that much. So, it was kind of a fresh face to look at.

Simone Cicero:
Great, great. And maybe I would say, kind of provocative question: but how much talent do you need then for such a well-understood topic, Peter?

Peter C. Evans:
Well, the talent has to get out to the people that are actually doing the work in the companies. I think that just because the knowledge is there, doesn’t mean it’s being applied. So, then the question is, is what is a company seeking? What are they out there looking for? So, part of the study, and what we did was we looked at the job postings for platforms over a course of a year, and we’re able to collect over 11,000 job postings and analyze those job postings. And from that, we were able to glean a number of insights. One were the types of companies that were looking for Platform Talent. And they really come into three categories. One are, what I call the replenishers. Those are the existing platforms that needing to replace people who have left or retired or for other reasons, or they have a new growth space, and they need to add employees. So, those are one group that are out there actively looking for additional Platform Talent. A second are the builders, those are the startups that have reached an inflection point where they’re really needing to add new employees.

And then the biggest area is actually, what you might call incumbents. These are companies that are in the marketplace, have recognized the challenges and threats of the platforms. And they’re now pursuing platform strategies and need to provide that talent. And there’s two ways they can do that, right. One is to train people internally and the other is to go out in the marketplace and find talent. And one of the examples I gave a very senior position that was just recently filled was the case of Nike. Nike is going with a very strong direct consumer strategy. They’ve actually pulled their products from Amazon and they needed somebody to lead that initiative. And so they tapped John Donahoe, who previously was the CEO of eBay, so he had really long, deep experience. He was the CEO of eBay for quite a number of years. And so there’s a case of at least at the CEO level of an incumbent company like Nike, looking for somebody who could drive their platform strategy.

Simone Cicero:
From our experience with some of our adopters, as well. So, for example, one of our dear users, Yolanda Martin, now from Kaluza, that she’s been telling us of a couple of years her story at Farfetch where she was head of platforms. Basically, she was kind of transmitting this capability across the organization. And they had to really be creative in terms of creating a roadshow, for example, and creating kind of pedagogical tools like visuals and things like that. So, what I get from this is that actually even if it’s well-understood, as you said, maybe it’s well-understood from experts, I would say, from academics that you also mentioned in the preparation call, but also consultants, designers that maybe have been spending like you, 10 or 15 years thinking about this. But apparently, it’s very hard to grasp at a systemic level in organizations. So, what do you feel like, and then maybe there is a risk that those people are hired not really to do platforms, but maybe to run some kind of platform theatre inside the organization that doesn’t really yet get to the depth of these transformations?

Peter C. Evans:
Well, what resonates or comes out very clearly in the job postings is that not only do they want technical talent. And we can talk about what the elements of that technical capability is. They need evangelists. And they need somebody with — and this is the challenge is that not only do they need deep technical knowledge, but they also need to be able to work across the organization to create buy-in around the strategy and the roadmap, because they’re often responsible for that. But also the external, right, platforms aren’t all about internal operations and optimizing, or even just optimizing your supply chain, it’s building that ecosystem, right? That community of the inverted firm, as some people call it, where you’re creating value outside the boundaries of the firm. And so you need people who understand how to do that. And it’s not just about cheering on, it’s actually creating the right incentive structures.

So, you need to understand pricing, and what kind of pricing makes sense in a platform context versus a product context? You also have to understand governance, right? What are the incentive structures that cause third parties to want to build compliments on your platform versus others? And platforms or the ones that have been around are constantly adapting and adjusting those governance parameters. We’ve seen fights over the App Store, and which apps should belong and not, and the payments and all that kind of thing. So, all platforms face those kinds of issues. And people who are really adept at being able to manage those multiple elements are in scarce supply.

Simone Cicero:
Definitely, it’s really insightful, to see how these roles are just not, you know — I think you have written about this — not even T-shaped people, they go beyond the very old idea of the T-shape, because they also need these kind of skills which are maybe more related to systems thinking and understanding complexity, both of their organization and the world, because it’s true that platforms are a continuous, let’s say, expression of capitalism, so nothing new from some point of view. But also, there are some radical innovations that are coming that are making possible to think about, you mentioned governance, for example, but I can mention crypto tokens and what they are making possible from the perspective of designing an organization. So, you also need people that are, they date enough to think about the real potential of this deep transformation. So, so can you maybe spend a word on, a little bit more on the idea that, you know, what kind of people that you want, you need?

Peter C. Evans:
Sure. So, like I mentioned, we did a scan of job postings over the course of a year. And from that, we’re able to identify very critical roles that are in demand. One is for platform strategists. And these are the people that help the organization think through what exactly their platform strategy should be, and then drive that strategic initiatives. Another are for platform product managers, which is pretty interesting. So, the role of a product manager has been around for a long time. But the elements that you need to be successful as a platform product manager are quite different. We’re actually seeing quite a number of posts in the financial services sector around this role. And I think it also calls to the fact that companies often don’t just have one platform, they’re often especially if they’re very large organizations running multiple platforms. And you might have multiple platform product managers responsible for those roles. And if you buy into and believe, which I think we do, that platforms are different than pipes in terms of business model, you need a different set of tools and frameworks and experiences to be able to successfully run a product platform, right. And so anyway, that role is quite common.

Another one are for platform ecosystem managers. You know, a key element of a platform is having compliments, these third parties that build value for your platform, and that you help to orchestrate. And you need people to actually do that. It’s one thing to build the technical capabilities in terms of software and integrations and APIs, but you actually have to have people that manage, that make strategic choices and decisions around that ecosystem management role. And their role is to design and advocate for investments and strategic decisions around how to enhance the value of the third party compliments to your platform.

Another role that’s very critical are platform engineering. For these very large platforms that you know, they’re doing not just 10s of thousands, not millions, but billions of transactions. In the IT software infrastructure, you need to actually run and operate, it is quite phenomenal. And so you need this really deep expertise from an engineering standpoint, which would focus on your API integrations, your cloud engagements, and increasingly your data analytic. It’s not the analysis, but it’s the underlying architecture that enables that analysis to take place. So, that’s 1, 2, 3, 4 roles I’ve just mentioned.

A fifth are platform data management. So, companies increasingly recognize that data is a very valuable asset. And you need to think about your data from a platform perspective, which is a different perspective than just hiring a data scientist, for example. A data scientist has a toolkit, and they know how to go and look at patterns. And they can run your databases and things of that nature. But to think about your data management, from a platform perspective is truly different. And so you see companies out there in the market, looking for people, not just with data management and data science skills, but actually can build the integrations and manage that from a platform perspective, because you’re using others data often for the value that you create.

And then a fifth one that’s just popping up more recently is around platform privacy and compliance. And clearly, legal teams are responsible for that. But you know, the regulatory landscape is changing by the day, practically. And so you really need people who can follow what’s going on and bring that back to the executive team and the others that run the platform operations; the platform product managers, the ecosystem managers, the platform engineering. So, that privacy compliance, although the legal regimes that are now coming to bear on platforms need attention. We’re seeing companies out there looking for people that can help with that element of running a successful platform.

Stina Heikkila:
Cool. And can I ask you, in the study that you conducted, what were the main surprises that hit you? Because clearly, you have a lot of experience and you’ve probably seen a lot of things. But I’m thinking in terms of types of companies that you didn’t expect to find or types of requirements or desired competencies. And also a second part of that question is that I’m curious to know if you found a lot of public institutions also seeking Platform Talents; government agencies, or foundations, or international organizations.

Peter C. Evans:
Okay, sure. So, let me answer the first question — what you asked last first. We didn’t really focus on that so much, so didn’t train our keywords on public institutions. But obviously, there are and that’s kind of an interesting question. So, where would they fit, somewhat different maybe then analyzing what a firm would do or an enterprise would do? So, it wasn’t really in the scope of this particular study. Surprises, there were a number. One is that companies are actually out there looking specifically for Platform Talent. And in the job descriptions, you often see looking for X number of years of experience running a platform at scale. And so I guess, one was this recognition that scale is really important. And as we know, the big successful platforms are really running operations at huge, massive scale. I mean, Netflix is obviously one example. But Spotify and all these guys are out there looking for talent all the time so they get lots of postings. The financial services sector is heavily weighted in the study. So, there’s a lot of attention to building platform capabilities. And that has to do with I think, a recognition that APIs and building third party ecosystems.

There’s almost like a land grab happening now with the recognition that if you aren’t out there building a platform, someone else might and get the critical mass and access to your customers that will hurt you in the long run. So, I think most of them have woken up to the fact that they need some kind of platform strategy and so they’re looking to populate their organizations. And so that speaks also to the fact there are a number of companies out there with what I would call programmatic hiring. They’re hiring or putting out job posts of 60 or more job postings a year. So, it sounds like a lot if you’re a startup, but for a big organization the size of a Citi group, or JP Morgan, or any number of the big financial institutions, it’s actually pretty small. And so anyway, so that programmatic hiring is clearly evident in the data. And it’s interesting to see which companies are out there doing that kind of programmatic hiring.

Simone Cicero:
So, Peter, one question that I have. In these job positions that you are capturing in the study, is there any mention of skin in the game? So, I’d say looking for employees, or entrepreneurs as well, not just employees? Or is the incentive structure the very usual one: the package, the money? And even if they ask you for some entrepreneurial experience, it’s not part of the job to be an entrepreneur?

Peter C. Evans:
Yeah, I guess it depends on which ones you’re talking about. Are you talking about the replenishers, the builders, or the incumbents? And I think they all come to the Platform Talent search process with slightly different objectives and experiences. I think the replenishers already have a deep culture of platforms. So, the need for them to have people with really deep platform expertise is probably less and because they can quickly — they’re surrounded by people who live and breathe that and the systems are well in place and the culture is well in place. The bigger challenge is obviously, for the incumbents, where the platform external hires brought into the organization, they probably — unless there were really well supported — could feel orphaned, and have a hard time moving the needle in the organization. So, I think it really depends on who’s looking for the talent.

Simone Cicero:
And you see these differences also on a geography perspective? So, for example, we’ve been working with this Chinese colleague at this Chinese company called Haier, and the hiring process seems to be much more entrepreneurial. Or do you cover, with the study, the whole world or was it focusing only on the US?

Peter C. Evans:
Yeah. No, it was global in scope. Of course, it was English language. So, there’s probably a bias in the data towards English language speaking, you know, job boards for the data was collected. But the Chinese companies did pop up in the job searches. In some respects, China has really embraced the platform revolution, they have examples of highly successful companies that have adopted platform business models. And so I think it’s well understood that platforms can yield great benefits. So, the market in China is quite fluid and there’s a lot of attention. What’s kind of interesting is the moves abroad, right? So, you may have a platform company in China that’s looking to move into Indonesia. And so there are actually job postings for folks like that, right. So, they’re brought into an organization that’s already a platform, but they’re looking to build out their capabilities in other locations. And what was pretty interesting is how many job postings there were in Europe. You know, Europe’s been lagging in platform creation but I think there’s growing attention to the importance of adopting platform business models.

So, we do see companies out there looking. But I guess there’s also this question of recruiting and hiring and there is huge variation in the quality of the job postings. Some of them are very detailed and it’s very clear that they have a very astute understanding of what a platform job role they’re looking to fill, and good descriptions we would understand from a platform perspective on the kind of talent that you would need to actually execute on that. But there are others where it’s not clear at all that they’ve articulated their needs well or even understanding. A question is, is that been lost in translation where the executive team has decided to take a platform initiative and have asked the HR and the recruiters to go out and find them the talent to support that. And the problem may be that the HR or the recruiters haven’t really been educated that well, they’re not experts in this space. And therefore, they don’t even know exactly how to articulate that. So, there may be a dropping of the ball there.

One thing that I’m kind of curious about, I’ve seen a lot of the executive job search companies out there, now offering and having specialized services around digital labor, right, or digital talent. So, they will help you find executives that can help fill that kind of need in your organization. But what I have not seen are the further level of specialization around platforms, which is interesting in the sense that I think you and I would agree that, in some respects, your platform strategist is probably the most important role. You know, digital transformation is a larger thing that’s happening in your organization, but you really need people that are astutely familiar with platform strategy, and all the elements that I mentioned around platform product management, ecosystem management, platform engineering, that will help you launch and execute those. So, a little bit surprised that the world of recruiting and executive development hasn’t created specialized services, specifically around Platform Talent, acquisition, development, etc.

Simone Cicero:
Right. And yes, I can sympathize when you speak about these organizations that tend to be very confused about what they’re looking for. And I recall working with the United Nations a few years ago, and they had this new plan that the Chief of Staff wrote explaining that the organization had to become a platform, but nobody knew…

Peter C. Evans:
…How to do it

Simone Cicero:
And that explains the reality that we live in these organizations. So, my question would be: you are very efficient, I think, at explaining that this is not rocket science. I mean, to some extent it is, but it’s also something that we understand. So, you just need to study, and you need to be disciplined and apply the kind of script. And to some extent, it’s true that we have been living with this narrative of platform start-ups as they were changing the world. But again, today, it’s just a method, an approach, an age that we’re living. So, everything would need to be transformed that way, even public services. And so that’s more or less what I get from a conversation with you. So, if we look at the whole scope, who are the laggards, and where are they lagging? And who are the pioneers and where are they pioneering? Is this pioneering more a technological frontier or is it an ethical, or design, or I don’t know, what kind of other edge is there?

Peter C. Evans:
Right. So, I saw a job post recently that really caught my attention. And it was for a very large healthcare company. And they were looking for somebody to help them with repurposing their entire internal employee education program with a platform perspective in mind. So, that caught my attention, because we’ve talked about internal needs of the organization, but there’s a revolution taking place in how education is being delivered. And we’re seeing the rise of very large platforms like Udacity, edX, and others that can offer executive training and other types of talent development. And so one of the things that I really think is interesting, and I think the company, some companies are, you asked me for leaders. I think some companies are beginning to recognize it’s not just about becoming a platform. It’s looking around at the platform economy, and figuring out ways to better tap into that platform economy in ways that benefit your organization. And that maybe what it will include rethinking your entire training education programs. And it doesn’t get a huge amount of attention by scholars and pundits. But the reality is, is companies spend millions and millions and millions of dollars on employee training and education and leadership development.

And so the question is, how do you go about doing that? Some companies had their own universities, right, even with campuses. But as we move increasingly online, and those platforms that deliver high quality and very diverse, you know, it’s like a iTunes menu of different kinds of training courses, you really need somebody who has a kind of a platform perspective and vision to rethink how you’re going to go about this continuous learning. So, that’s one view of how a company could do it. But the other is, is that you’re actually, these platforms can be very effective in training non attached people, people who have joined the gig economy or the freelance economy, and they want to upskill themselves. You don’t need a company, you can go and design your own program. And so that leaves the question of, do these companies that offer these training programs or these education programs, kind of as a menu of do they need to get more into thinking about the life cycle, and maybe try to do what banks do, which is get a customer early on in their life and then lead them through their entire lifecycle.

So, we could see talent as a service programs emerging, where the challenge and the opportunity is to capture that pool of people. And you know, STEM is a great example. These are people that have built specialized knowledge in computer programming, or other elements of data science and whatnot. But they also need to think about their long term careers so that they end up leading the team that is doing the engineering for Netflix, for example. Right? And so what does that progression look like? And how do you catch them when they’re 18 and lead them through their entire life? There’s tremendous opportunities to provide kind of talent as a service. And I think kind of an interesting key question is, is could you have a subset that specializes just in Platform Talent?

Stina Heikkila:
That’s really interesting. So, it sounds to me, I mean, there is a big skills mismatch from what I perceived from hearing you talk here. So, there are companies looking for talents, not necessarily knowing always how to describe their needs. And there’s a need for reskilling and training also future generations, right, that can work on the platform. Would you say that this mismatch is a big constraint for the platform economy at the moment to reach its potential?

Peter C. Evans:
Well, I think there’s a supply side of educating the next generation of platform leaders. There are courses, both in MBA programs and also in economics departments that focus on platforms, a very small number right now. And then you have a second tier of education programs for executive education that are out there. I think when you look broadly at the future demand, there’s probably not enough programs in place to actually serve the overall demand. And then there’s a question of, kind of cost and quality. And there’s really been no systematic assessment. There’s no scoring of what are the best, and guidance for people. If you’re young and you’re interested in getting into a platform career. And there’s kind of a notion that there’s a potential for platform professionals out there.

And as a career option, I think there’s some really exciting and interesting jobs in that space, it’s still new and formative. I think supply and demand will come together, but probably there’s more demand than there is supply right now. And that’s why you’re seeing poaching happening in the market. And job, in terms of salaries, people who have specialized in platforms are doing quite well. And there were a few platforms that got hit hard by the Covid-19. But many of them exploded in demand, right? So, overall, I think the platform economy or companies that have pursued platform strategies have done quite well through this global pandemic. And those that have chosen careers around kind of becoming a platform professional are reaping the benefits.

Simone Cicero:
So, Peter, we’re talking a lot about incumbents and sometimes I feel like are you telling me that we are going to hire this kind of enormous amount of platform expertise that is going to just reconstruct a platform bureaucracy? And to some extent that just accept that the transition to this platform or these network models is not challenging for the very idea of hiring structures and management, and kind of traditionally structured industrial organizations. The question is, now that we understand platforms, we also understand, I guess, that our organizations need to be different. So, I’m wondering, for example, if the skills that these new figures that companies are looking for include something like collective decision making, or designing — you mentioned governance — so that’s an interesting point of view. But maybe not just from the perspective of the incentive structure design, but also from the perspective of creating collaborative processes and I would say, be more experimental, how they organize work.

Peter C. Evans:
Yeah. So, I think one challenge for management, there’s a couple of them. But one, for example, is we know from lots of studies of platforms that you want to maximize the value of the whole ecosystem, not one particular product or element of the platform, right? So, that becomes a management challenge. Like, how do you incentivize that product line leader, who is actually generating the revenue that is then used to subsidize another part of the platform, right? So, in traditional companies, you set revenue goals for your P&L leaders. In this case, you have to finesse that process because the value is actually created partly by the sacrifice of one of your P&L leaders. So, how do you properly incentivize that from a management perspective?

Similarly, your broader ecosystem play, you can’t squeeze, traditionally you want to squeeze your supply chain, right? That’s how you enhance your profitability. But in a platform space, you’ll get defection from your platform. And so thinking about those incentives, so I think it’s a keen understanding of the implications of running a platform versus a traditional pipe product vision, and what those incentives play out. And so a good understanding of economics, Game Theory and transaction costs, and all those kinds of things really help. And so I guess the lesson from this study is, yes, technical skills are really important. But you really have to understand the economics and increasingly, the regulatory landscape. Not just what’s happening today, but anticipating that a couple steps down the line so that you don’t start building and executing on something that is either going to be rejected by the regulators or socially.

And so we’ve seen and there’s been a lot of attention to this whole, for example, consumer privacy issue that wasn’t an issue 10 years ago for platforms, right? Collecting individuals’ data was no big deal. But you know, businesses are all about adapting to circumstances. You put up the constraints, and they’ll figure out how to optimize against them. So, I’m optimistic that there will be innovations and new strategic thinking to overcome these. But it’s also important not to assume that you’re not going to face those kinds of barriers. And that’s actually kind of the exciting space right now of how do you create a platform within these new constraint sets or anticipating the constraint set so that the platform you designed today will be successful over a period of time that’s longer than your competitors.

Simone Cicero:
It’s becoming like a sport.

Peter C. Evans:
Of course. Hey, we’re talking business here, right.

Stina Heikkila:
And then if I can jump in, it’s a team sport then. Because I recall reading something that you wrote that it’s hard to find all of these attributes in one individual, right?

Peter C. Evans:
Oh, yeah. Well, it’s almost impossible. Some of the job postings I’ve seen, you’re like, good luck, you’re never going to find somebody who has the depth of technical expertise in computer science, plus the ability to go out and evangelize, and work across the entire organization, and do the communication strategy for your organization. You really need to build a platform team, and so it’s really assembling that. And I think companies could use a lot of help and thinking through: “what is the elements of my Platform Talent that I need to be successful over time?”

Simone Cicero:
I was wondering if, in this new job, the new talent that companies are seeking, there’s also some special attention towards purpose and trying to understand, for example, as a move maybe from the perspective of the applicants, if the company that I’m going to apply for can provide me the space, the purpose for me to express my wholeness as a person? Or is this part of the narrative of jobs around platform or is it just a marginal matter and everything is about money and the package?

Peter C. Evans:
You know, there are so many platforms now in so many different spaces that I think that if your aspiration in life is to help people in their health, there’s a platform for you. If you’re interested in the fashion space, and just the cutting edge of what’s happening in that world, there’s a platform. If you’re interested in music creators, they’re amazing platforms around Platform Talent, platform branding. And then I was amazed and been following fairly closely, Shell Oil just announced a platform. And so big industrial companies, ABB is also looking at — have launched a platform both in Brazil and India. And my understanding is they’re planning to go global. So, there’s basically now, it’s truly a platform economy. So, I think there’s a huge opportunity to become a platform professional, to pursue all sorts of different goals that you may have as an individual, and what you think is really important in the industries and sectors that get you really excited.

Stina Heikkila:
I know that you set out — well, I think you set out — in your study as well to see how the next generation technologies like artificial intelligence, machine learning, and voice technology and 5G, and so on, will drive Platform Talent needs. Is that something that you already explored, or it’s something that is coming up?

Peter C. Evans:
That’s a really interesting question and organizations haven’t sorted that out yet. You’ve got companies now that are investing in building 5G infrastructure. And then the question becomes are there opportunities to build new platforms that would enhance the value of that infrastructure play? So, that’s a really interesting question. On the AI as a whole another really interesting space, which is, this kind of robotic process automation. So, a lot of routine work that people do tasks in organizations are going to be replaced by AI. But there’s also the emergence of AI platforms, and so that’s super interesting. And one thing I’m seeing is that the vendors of AI as a service platforms are now building out. They’re basically building out universities to train people on their AI systems, which is a platform strategy. And so Microsoft and Automation Anywhere companies like that are realizing that in investment in talent is a great way to build out your ecosystem and platform strategy. So, this talent development is also a strategic element in that it trains people on your platform technology, brings people into your ecosystem. And so I think that a lot of executives, they don’t really pay as much attention as they should to as platform education and training and development as a strategic way to gain advantage in the marketplace.

Simone Cicero:
That was all an interesting topic, but I think that a closing question would help us to wrap it up a little is, from the perspective of the candidate, what needs to be in my application? And from the perspective of a company that is hiring, what kind of, you spoke about the skills, but maybe where do you start from?

Peter C. Evans:
So, we haven’t really talked about this, but I think it’s an interesting area, that’s going to get more attention in the future. Which is, what credentials, what badging, certifications are going to give you an advantage in the marketplace? Which really takes you back to who’s offering the best training courses, and which ones get the attention of employers, right, as a signal that you’ve acquired that level of expertise that really advances you. And you have to be, what I’ve learned in working for some big companies is this notion of time to productivity of the workers is very important. You know, you can find somebody who’s a great candidate, but if it takes you three or four years to get them up to speed to be productive in the organization, that’s a problem, right? And so, I think that the organizations that come out with good badging to demonstrate that the people that they have badged as a platform professional with certain technical and managerial skills will perform better and be more effective more quickly in your organization will stand out. And then that will also attract people to get that badging in the process, right.

Right now, it’s a mishmash, all right, and it’s word of mouth and there isn’t really good systematic. So, if you’re a company right now, maybe you go with a name brand like Harvard, right? But it turns out a Harvard course may not be the best because it’s often taught by TAs, the professors are busy doing their research and on the speaking circuit. So, that actually might not be the best place to get a talent. So, companies have to be aware and they also have to be aware of the costs. And I think more research would need to be done on the pricing of platform professionals versus others. And where can you get high quality at a better price, I think is going to be a good thing to think about longer-term for your platform strategy.

Simone Cicero:
Peter, a reflection that I would like to offer to you before we close. So, it seems like you figured it out to this world of platform pretty profoundly. I think also because of your analyst background, I think — No, maybe not background but the work that you’ve been doing and the reports as well. So, is there something that you are confused about when we think about the future of this platform age?

Peter C. Evans:
I don’t know about confused, but there’s a lot of things I’m curious about how it will play out. And one area that I’m really interested in is, are we going to see more platforms that help organize creative talent, right? So, a lot of platforms have been focused on very discrete kind of gig work mechanisms. But what about work that’s more challenging to define. Because how do you post that and make it known? How do you discover that on that platform? And so we’re seeing actually, big platforms like Spotify, create artists tools, to make those artists more successful on their platform. We’re seeing the rise of platforms specialize in marketing talent, to help companies build out their branding in other events, ways to engage customers in new ways. I think that’s a really interesting space because it creates a lot of challenges about how do you actually create that matching market? How do you create the discovery? Do these algorithms really work well in the creative space? So, anyway, that’s an area that I’ve gotten very interested in.

The other one is around cross-platform integrations. You’re seeing, as we’ve discussed the rise of this platform economy with lots of platforms, there’s huge opportunities to bring two platforms together to create additional value. And so looking at, and I think hiring people who have an eye for understanding cross-platform integrations will be Platform Talent that you’d want to hire into your organization because it can open up huge new opportunities for your company to generate revenue and serve customers.

Simone Cicero:
Right. And that’s spot on. I think as a direction to point out in terms of digital platforms is the space between organizations. And I think what we have seen now with the advent of these — sorry, blockchain-based systems and the work, for example of Jesse Walden, or other people on this idea of progressive decentralization of this kind of internet-based…

Peter C. Evans:
I just wrote kind of a provocative piece in which I suggested a platform integration between Bands in Town, which is a very large platform. It has over 50 million users worldwide and matches with 10s of thousands of bands. I suggest that they do an integration with Exxon, which is a big oil company. Exxon has 11,500 gas stations in the US, which would probably serve about 2 million customers a day. Just imagine if you took their app, they’re going down a digital path with a loyalty program, instead of having loyalty points that can be used to take a little bit off your next gasoline purchase, what if those points could be allocated to your favorite band? I would be more likely to go to an Exxon station because I love music and would like to support artists. And so I think opportunities to bring two platforms together and create value for customers and loyalty in new ways is super exciting. And in fact, I’m just launching a multi-client study with Joe Pine, who’s well known for his pioneering work in the experience economy, and we’re specializing in looking at the rise of experience platforms. And so I’m very excited about that project.

Simone Cicero:
That’s great to know because I think we are discussing here the kind of overcoming of, to some extent, the industrial bureaucracy that slowed down our companies. Because all these agreements, dynamic contracting that we are supposed to see in this future of platform is going to be very pervasive. And you know, it’s going to be basically everywhere. So, Peter, by the way, also we have Joe Pine coming up on the podcast.

Peter C. Evans:
Okay, fantastic. Well, maybe you’ll talk a bit about experience platforms. We’ve built a database together. He brings a lot of insights that I had not been aware of, and then I bring the platform perspective. And so together, it’s a really fruitful collaboration.

Simone Cicero:
For sure, I think judging by the profound work that you are doing and the massively important work that Joe Pine is doing as well as and has been doing in the past. So, thanks very much, Peter. So, I would like to end with telling people where do they find the stuff that we’ve been talking about; the report, your upcoming essays, and the stuff that you have been writing recently, where do I look for?

Peter C. Evans:
Sure. Well, you can always follow me on LinkedIn. I’m pretty active there. And I tweet almost every day on platforms so you can follow me on Twitter. And then we’ve set up The Platform Strategy Institute with Geoffrey Parker, and Marshall Van Alstyne, and Diane Finkhousen, and so we post some of our work there as well. So, lots of different ways to track what we’re up to.

Simone Cicero:
And start from that amazing keynote that you guys delivered at the MIT Summit. So, Peter, that was an amazing conversation. I had a ton of fun, and I’m really looking forward to releasing it and extract all these insights that are packed in this 55 minutes. Stina, do you want to add something?

Stina Heikkila:
No, just thanks a lot. It was really great.

Peter C. Evans:
You’re welcome, enjoyed it.

Simone Cicero:
And thanks to our listeners, catch up soon.

Peter C. Evans:
Okay. Take care.